Back in 1989 when I was poor and pregnant, I went to a religious affiliated "pregnancy crisis center" because I needed a free test. They told me I was pregnant; I was 22 years old with a college degree, and a good safety net and had decided to keep and raise the baby. They put high pressure on me to give up my baby to a "good christian family." No offers of help or medical care. No "come back and we will help with diapers or formula." Just let us take your baby. You aren't good enough. So even if you make the "correct" moral choice, you're still just a baby factory. This did not feel at all life affirming to me.
I spent almost two decades taking care of and watching my Mother disappear from Alzheimer’s disease. Anyone who thinks that a cluster of cells in a petri dish is more important than she was is welcome to meet me face to face and explain to me why they believe that. I really wish you would because after watching the endless, horrific footage of the government murdering it’s own people, and hearing both government officials and everyday people defend it, I’ve got quite a lot of internalized anger that needs to be expressed.
Now that they’ve succeeded in overturning Roe, they can focus their energies (and their fundraising) on other “pro-life” issues such as eliminating no-fault divorce, equal pay & women’s suffrage.
January 22, 1974, seems so very far away today. I was just barely a teen then, but aware of this and other issues in our society. I've always been pro-choice for others, but since having had and raised the delight that is having children, I'm pro-choice for myself. I have to echo Ari below. I've looked for the perfect way to express this view, and danged if Ari didn't nail it.
I went to an all-girls Catholic High School. We marched one year. It was so damn cold. I never judged anyone who got an abortion, though, cause they believed that their circumstances rendered it at the time. I guess I have always been Pro-Choice for others, but Pro-Life for myself. I, luckily, never had to make the choice, and, again, I would never judge others who do make that choice.
Sorry, Michael, I didn't manage to stick with you through all of this. I am pro-life and, therefore, support the sanctity of all life. I don't support the death penalty for any criminals, I oppose the abuses we see at the hands of every kind of law enforcement, I do not believe the sick or the dying should be terminated any more than a baby should be. Maybe rather than being less than charitable and kind toward one part of that broad, consistent set of beliefs you might look at the hypocrisy in the way you choose to want to protect some, but not all. I will never understand why so many choose life sometimes but not always.
It is possible for them to multitask: advocate for a national ban consistent with their pro-birth mission, stir the shit of the culture war, and grift.
Well, here's th thing; safe abortion has and always shall remain a choice for wealthy women. For poor women? Not so much. Our economic system, such as it is, requires a certain underclass of workers; poor women, and they are not permitted choices.
Thank you for replying here, where you are clearly outnumbered. I'm taking advantage of your bravery to ask you what you believe. I am geniunely curious.
What do you believe abortion is "killing"exactly? A human being with a soul? Or more like a fertilized egg?
Are you okay with abortion in the case of incest and/or rape? If so, consider what and who you are judging. (Hint: Did she enjoy it?)
This is a fact: Anti-choice removes a woman's autonomy and her right to making her own choices about her own body. Keep in mind also, that 55% of women who have abortions are mothers.** A mother knows what is best for her and her children.
I don't eat animals, so I don't eat them. I don't tell other people what to eat.
A child is NEVER part of its mother's body. Not ever. Nobody is both completely male and completely female but young boys are born to women. The DNA of the 2 individuals is also different. I could go on...the mother's body is merely the place a child resides for a very short time. I believe we should have better answers than death to many difficult situations. We seem able to do so very much in other areas of our world. Consistency in the way we treat and care for each other should be a goal for us all.
This all about controlling women and eliminating their ability to choose how they want to live their lives. The pro-life folks love a fetus, but could care less when that child is born. If the woman dies, so be it. It is all about the money and power they continue to collect and wield. Sadly, they will never go away.
Abortion is definitely killing...I understand being "pro-choice" but don't understand how people deny it's killing a human life, even if it's an early one.
Thank you for replying here, where you are clearly outnumbered. I'm taking advantage of your bravery to ask you what you believe. I am geniunely curious.
What do you believe abortion is "killing"exactly? A human being with a soul? Or more like a fertilized egg?
Are you okay with abortion in the case of incest and/or rape? If so, consider what and who you are judging. (Hint: Did she enjoy it?)
This is a fact: Anti-choice removes a woman's autonomy and her right to making her own choices about her own body. Keep in mind also, that 55% of women who have abortions are mothers.** A mother knows what is best for her and her children.
I don't eat animals, so I don't eat them. I don't tell other people what to eat.
The article you're citing is from PubMed. "The PubMed wordmark and PubMed logo are registered trademarks of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)."
That's the current HHS, as in RFK Jr. Approach these "experts" with caution, and fully vaccinated.
Came here to say this. The National Legal Center for the Medically Dependent and Disabled, Inc. was started by James Bopp Jr. He is an anti-abortionist and all around anti-woman kind of guy. He also happens to be... general counsel for the National Right to Life Committee. UM. Not a doctor. There's nothing scientific about this. They have loads of money and fund their own biased "journal." That's the criteria needed to get plunked in PubMed.
Fwiw, I don't see a single reference or footnote to an actual study in this article. But I do see the keyword listed at the end of the article: abortion; fertilization; human rights; personhood; science communication; scientific consensus; when a human’s life begins; when life begins.
Thank you, Brian, and I sincerely hope you have a nice weekend too. Stay warm and safe.
Perhaps HHS was created before RFK Jr, but in the words of the genuine Nobel Laureate Bob Dylan, "things have changed" within the past year.
The Department of Justice was created before Pamela Bondi and it's now unrecognizable. The Department of Homeland Security has reached new depths under Secretary Kristi Noem. I could go on, but why bother.
You continue to conflate a person and cells. Those same biologists have diverse views on issues such as personhood or abortion rights. That is not the pro-choice view ignoring science. It is the pro-choice view considering science and other relevant factors. The obvious other factors are US law and the rights of a living, breathing mother. In reality, extreme abortion restrictions will be rejected by voters, who are more than cells.
Your feelings are your own and they are valid in their own way but they are not facts. If you are anti abortion then you should behave responsibly so that (in all likelihood) your partners will not need to have one. But you don’t get to decide that nobody should have one. Or that anyone who does is a murderer.
If these anti abortion groups care so much about babies and children and people then they should put their efforts behind taking care of babies and children and people. That is not what they are doing. They are elevating potential life over actual living people. They are doing so not because they are better people than pro choice folks. But because they recognize that this is a powerful way to subjugate women.
Those organizations mostly exist to dissuade women —often through trickery and manipulation — from choosing abortion even when that is in their best interest and the best interest of the potential child. I have zero respect for them.
"Abortion is definitely killing ... a human life." I respect your belief, but not the definitely part.
It's an unproven assumption, a dubious premise for your inability to understand how other people might disagree..
Even the Catholic Church taught that human life begins at "quickening" - from 16 to 20 weeks - as recently as 157 years ago. And for them, that's recent.
Back in 1989 when I was poor and pregnant, I went to a religious affiliated "pregnancy crisis center" because I needed a free test. They told me I was pregnant; I was 22 years old with a college degree, and a good safety net and had decided to keep and raise the baby. They put high pressure on me to give up my baby to a "good christian family." No offers of help or medical care. No "come back and we will help with diapers or formula." Just let us take your baby. You aren't good enough. So even if you make the "correct" moral choice, you're still just a baby factory. This did not feel at all life affirming to me.
I spent almost two decades taking care of and watching my Mother disappear from Alzheimer’s disease. Anyone who thinks that a cluster of cells in a petri dish is more important than she was is welcome to meet me face to face and explain to me why they believe that. I really wish you would because after watching the endless, horrific footage of the government murdering it’s own people, and hearing both government officials and everyday people defend it, I’ve got quite a lot of internalized anger that needs to be expressed.
Now that they’ve succeeded in overturning Roe, they can focus their energies (and their fundraising) on other “pro-life” issues such as eliminating no-fault divorce, equal pay & women’s suffrage.
Where Catholic school students mingle with white supremacists
January 22, 1974, seems so very far away today. I was just barely a teen then, but aware of this and other issues in our society. I've always been pro-choice for others, but since having had and raised the delight that is having children, I'm pro-choice for myself. I have to echo Ari below. I've looked for the perfect way to express this view, and danged if Ari didn't nail it.
I went to an all-girls Catholic High School. We marched one year. It was so damn cold. I never judged anyone who got an abortion, though, cause they believed that their circumstances rendered it at the time. I guess I have always been Pro-Choice for others, but Pro-Life for myself. I, luckily, never had to make the choice, and, again, I would never judge others who do make that choice.
Sorry, Michael, I didn't manage to stick with you through all of this. I am pro-life and, therefore, support the sanctity of all life. I don't support the death penalty for any criminals, I oppose the abuses we see at the hands of every kind of law enforcement, I do not believe the sick or the dying should be terminated any more than a baby should be. Maybe rather than being less than charitable and kind toward one part of that broad, consistent set of beliefs you might look at the hypocrisy in the way you choose to want to protect some, but not all. I will never understand why so many choose life sometimes but not always.
It is possible for them to multitask: advocate for a national ban consistent with their pro-birth mission, stir the shit of the culture war, and grift.
*forced birth
Well, here's th thing; safe abortion has and always shall remain a choice for wealthy women. For poor women? Not so much. Our economic system, such as it is, requires a certain underclass of workers; poor women, and they are not permitted choices.
The labour pool must be filled… until we are no longer needed 🤬
It always comes down to grift.
Thank you for replying here, where you are clearly outnumbered. I'm taking advantage of your bravery to ask you what you believe. I am geniunely curious.
What do you believe abortion is "killing"exactly? A human being with a soul? Or more like a fertilized egg?
Are you okay with abortion in the case of incest and/or rape? If so, consider what and who you are judging. (Hint: Did she enjoy it?)
This is a fact: Anti-choice removes a woman's autonomy and her right to making her own choices about her own body. Keep in mind also, that 55% of women who have abortions are mothers.** A mother knows what is best for her and her children.
I don't eat animals, so I don't eat them. I don't tell other people what to eat.
-------------------
**https://www.brookings.edu/articles/abortion-in-the-us-what-you-need-to-know/
A child is NEVER part of its mother's body. Not ever. Nobody is both completely male and completely female but young boys are born to women. The DNA of the 2 individuals is also different. I could go on...the mother's body is merely the place a child resides for a very short time. I believe we should have better answers than death to many difficult situations. We seem able to do so very much in other areas of our world. Consistency in the way we treat and care for each other should be a goal for us all.
This all about controlling women and eliminating their ability to choose how they want to live their lives. The pro-life folks love a fetus, but could care less when that child is born. If the woman dies, so be it. It is all about the money and power they continue to collect and wield. Sadly, they will never go away.
Abortion is definitely killing...I understand being "pro-choice" but don't understand how people deny it's killing a human life, even if it's an early one.
@brianw
Thank you for replying here, where you are clearly outnumbered. I'm taking advantage of your bravery to ask you what you believe. I am geniunely curious.
What do you believe abortion is "killing"exactly? A human being with a soul? Or more like a fertilized egg?
Are you okay with abortion in the case of incest and/or rape? If so, consider what and who you are judging. (Hint: Did she enjoy it?)
This is a fact: Anti-choice removes a woman's autonomy and her right to making her own choices about her own body. Keep in mind also, that 55% of women who have abortions are mothers.** A mother knows what is best for her and her children.
I don't eat animals, so I don't eat them. I don't tell other people what to eat.
-------------------
**https://www.brookings.edu/articles/abortion-in-the-us-what-you-need-to-know/
Abortion kills a human life.
96% of biologists believe that life begins at conception.
That's the science.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36629778/
The article you're citing is from PubMed. "The PubMed wordmark and PubMed logo are registered trademarks of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)."
That's the current HHS, as in RFK Jr. Approach these "experts" with caution, and fully vaccinated.
Came here to say this. The National Legal Center for the Medically Dependent and Disabled, Inc. was started by James Bopp Jr. He is an anti-abortionist and all around anti-woman kind of guy. He also happens to be... general counsel for the National Right to Life Committee. UM. Not a doctor. There's nothing scientific about this. They have loads of money and fund their own biased "journal." That's the criteria needed to get plunked in PubMed.
Fwiw, I don't see a single reference or footnote to an actual study in this article. But I do see the keyword listed at the end of the article: abortion; fertilization; human rights; personhood; science communication; scientific consensus; when a human’s life begins; when life begins.
Thanks for this, Heidi. your information adds more to this discussion than Brian's "96% of biologists that believe life begins at conception."
I usually don't engage at length with anyone online, but his "definitely" raised my hackles.
It was created before RFK Jr. 😆
Have a nice weekend
Thank you, Brian, and I sincerely hope you have a nice weekend too. Stay warm and safe.
Perhaps HHS was created before RFK Jr, but in the words of the genuine Nobel Laureate Bob Dylan, "things have changed" within the past year.
The Department of Justice was created before Pamela Bondi and it's now unrecognizable. The Department of Homeland Security has reached new depths under Secretary Kristi Noem. I could go on, but why bother.
You go, Susan. I'm always quoting some legendary songwriter it seems, and again this time it's Dylan: Everything is Broken.
Thanks but that has nothing to do with the 96% of biologists that believe life begins at conception.
Abortion kills a human life. You should study biology.
Take care.
An amoeba or bacterium is life. Good job avoiding the hard questions. (/sarcasm)
The link describes human life.
Abortion kills a human life.
This isn't really complicated. I know the "pro-choice" arguments are really bad because they deny science.
You continue to conflate a person and cells. Those same biologists have diverse views on issues such as personhood or abortion rights. That is not the pro-choice view ignoring science. It is the pro-choice view considering science and other relevant factors. The obvious other factors are US law and the rights of a living, breathing mother. In reality, extreme abortion restrictions will be rejected by voters, who are more than cells.
The cells are still a human life before they are aborted.
That's what abortion is...terminating a pregnancy which is a human life.
My job is to inform, not to convince.
Have a nice weekend.
Your feelings are your own and they are valid in their own way but they are not facts. If you are anti abortion then you should behave responsibly so that (in all likelihood) your partners will not need to have one. But you don’t get to decide that nobody should have one. Or that anyone who does is a murderer.
If these anti abortion groups care so much about babies and children and people then they should put their efforts behind taking care of babies and children and people. That is not what they are doing. They are elevating potential life over actual living people. They are doing so not because they are better people than pro choice folks. But because they recognize that this is a powerful way to subjugate women.
Women and babies are currently dying at higher rates simply because of the vilification of abortion. Is that okay with you? https://www.prb.org/articles/abortion-bans-linked-to-sharp-rise-in-sepsis-infant-death-and-maternal-mortality-new-research-shows/
https://thegepi.org/maternal-mortality-abortion-bans/
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/womens-health/texas-abortion-ban-deaths-pregnant-women-sb8-analysis-rcna171631
Tons of pro-life groups help pregnant mothers during pregnancy and after.
Here's one. It helps Mother's put their babies up for adoption, too.
https://www.heartbeatinternational.org/
Those organizations mostly exist to dissuade women —often through trickery and manipulation — from choosing abortion even when that is in their best interest and the best interest of the potential child. I have zero respect for them.
Well put. Thank you.
"Abortion is definitely killing ... a human life." I respect your belief, but not the definitely part.
It's an unproven assumption, a dubious premise for your inability to understand how other people might disagree..
Even the Catholic Church taught that human life begins at "quickening" - from 16 to 20 weeks - as recently as 157 years ago. And for them, that's recent.
A human has been born. So says the US Constitution. That would be the root of the logic.